(no subject)

[graculus]

Ack. An editor whose opinions I usually happily accept wants me to replace 'got' with 'gotten' in one sentence of a recently-submitted zine story. Am I over-reacting when my immediate reaction is 'hell, no!'?

In case anyone was wondering, the sentence in question: There was little doubt that the sound of breaking glass was coming from inside, but how could anyone have got onto the train?

[Poll #713865]

Comments

[cara-chapel.livejournal.com]

Is the editor American? If so, this is an American vs. British common usage issue. To address it, if it is not coming out of American character/narrator/consciousness's mouth, I'd say she should leave it alone. Got is perfectly acceptable; it's just less used in the USA.

Defend yourself with gusto!

[graculus.livejournal.com]

American editor and the pondering of an American character as well. I just can't bear it. :(

[cara-chapel.livejournal.com]

Who's the character? Is it someone who might have been exposed to British culture? I use "got" frequently, having had some of my grammatical patterns formed by UK texts. Could your character be similarly "contaminated?" ;-D

[graculus.livejournal.com]

It's from the pov of James West, so it's debatable. ;)

[blktauna.livejournal.com]

gotten, all the way.
Sorry love listen to him on the show...

I'd never have Illya or Bodie or Jack or George say it, but Jimbo... that'd be his usage.

[cara-chapel.livejournal.com]

'Fraid I agree with blktauna! ;-)

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

The only way I can see the change being necessary if it's in a piece of dialogue from an American character. But in the narration, 'got' is perfectly correct.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think I'd have less problems with it if it were in dialogue, but it's still not a word I hear coming out of the mouth of these particular characters, so... ;)

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

Depends on time period and education of the character too, of course. A modern everyday North American is going to use "gotten" (it always looks wrong to me when I make myself use "got" when writting British characters) but if there's a reason the character would use the British syntax or it predates the Amerenglish shift, then it shouldn't be an issue.

[cedara]

Depends. If it's an American language fandom, then maybe. If the character is American, then yes. If neither fits, then no. :-)

[thefannishwaldo.livejournal.com]

To this American English teacher, it sounds wrong. It's 'got' - simple past (How anyone got onto the train was a mystery.) or 'have gotten' - past participle (How could anyone have gotten onto the train?)

Now, if it's being written so that you have a 3rd person limited omnicient narrator who has less than perfect grammar it could stand as a stylistic choice. But very technically, in the US we teach get/got/have gotten.

*shrug*

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

'have got unto' sounds British (and a little odd) to my American ears. Gotten would be my choice. Will the zine be read by mostly American or British readers?

[alyse]

'Got' is the grammatically correct choice in that sentence. 'Gotten' may be common usage in American English, but then so is 'drug' as a past tense of 'to drag' or 'would of' instead of 'would have' and I wouldn't use those in narrative either.

As far as I'm concerned, the only acceptable use of 'gotten' would be in the dialogue of a character who would use that grammatically incorrect usage in everyday speech. In other words, it's acceptable to use it if you're trying to capture the essence of a character and the character would use it, which limits it to first person point of view narrative or dialogue.

[isabeau.livejournal.com]

...I would like to argue that "have/had gotten" is not in the same class as "drug" or "would of", in that the latter two are more nonstandard dialects. got/gotten is, to my mind, the same thing as dived/dove -- both *grammatically* correct, in standard dialects, though depending somewhat on the circumstance and on the british/american tendencies.

(interesting link, when googling on "had got" -- http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_294.html )

[aizjanika.livejournal.com]

I agree with isabeau that "gotten" is not in the same category with "drug" as the past tense of "drag." "Gotten" is in my dictionary as the past participle of "get." It's correct usage if used in the right way (here in the U.S.). "Would of" is always wrong and "drug" as a past tense of "drag" is also always wrong.

[superbadgirl]

Indeed. "Drug" as past tense is wrong no matter where you are, but gotten, while apparently offensive and whatever to some, is perfectly natural to others.

Whenever I come across something that's iffy, I reword and move on. ;)

[cycnus39]

*throws a stone and then runs away* :-P

[graculus.livejournal.com]

You are just so helpful! :P

[cycnus39]

Well, I use got mainly but gotten when it makes the sentence run better. It's your choice -- choose your poison and stick to your guns. ;-)

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

My immediate reaction is 'hell, no'. At first blush it's a question of asking someone to write in another language - in American English instead of English. I see no reason why I should change my spelling or use a word that doesn't exist in my language just because the narrative is about an American character.

But... put my writer hat on and my question is what is the PoV? It looks like third but I can't tell how deep from the quote. The deeper the PoV, the more I would expect American words from the American PoV character. If it's not so deep then I really wouldn't worry about it, and I'd just write in my own language.

But at the end of the day, the obvious point is that 'gotten' is a fugly word that should be deleted from everyone's language.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I've happily made a serious attempt to Americanize whatever I do in zines, since I feel there needs to be some consistency across stories regardless of the nationality of the writer - since all the fandoms I write in have predominantly American characters (barring the odd host to a parasitical alien) I don't see this as a major problem. However, with this I find myself wanting to draw the line...

But at the end of the day, the obvious point is that 'gotten' is a fugly word that should be deleted from everyone's language.

Sounds about right to me! :P

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

I don't see a need for consistency across writers, but rather a need for consistency of voice from the characters (within reason, as every writer has a slightly different view of each character).

If you were writing in French there wouldn't be this argument of got vs gotten but you could still choose the wrong words for the character's voice and the PoV. In this case, though, you've chosen the right word because gotten is fugly. It just is. And the world doesn't need any more fugliness.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

When I was talking consistency, I meant in terms of the consistent use of US spelling etc. v a mixture of US and British/Canadian spelling etc., which would be offputting (imo) to readers if happening across a whole zine. However, I would say that I don't always Americanise stuff if it's going to my website and isn't going to be seen in conjunction with other people's work...

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

Ah, okay. I guess that's a personal thing for a zine editor then. But wanting US spelling for a zine is rather like wanting an English translation of a French story - the editor is translating the story from English into American English. I think that's something different from making a particular choice between a normal word and a fugly word. Did I mention it's fugly? I did? Excellent.

*g*

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

I'd just restructure the sentence so as not to use "got" or "gotten" - it's a slightly awkward sentence (to me).

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I'll give this option some thought but I have to say, you're clearly much cleverer than me. ;)

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

You are of course, writing a character I haven't, and one from the Old West, too - and advice is free. :-)

Down to brass tacks? To my ear, "gotten" *sounds* better when it's said out loud, so I'd switch it to that. But I think I was trained early on to try and *not* use that word when writing (unless absolutely necessary). I had some persnickety English teachers!

[lovellama.livejournal.com]

I know I'm late to the party, but I would second the notion to use another word. How about 'There was little doubt that the sound of breaking glass was coming from inside, but how could anyone have boarded the train?

[cara-chapel.livejournal.com]

KUNI LURVE!!!!!!!!

[rhade-rad.livejournal.com]

That would be my solution too.

[obelix]

I'm with you about that one, I hate it. It just sounds wrong to my ears. Maybe change the sentence so that it's no longer an issue?

And please, please, please never use drug something somewhere, that's even worse!

[graculus.livejournal.com]

If I ever have someone having drug something somewhere, you have my permission to have me put out of everyone's misery. ;)

[sg1jb]

>> have got...
>> had gotten...

If pressed, I'd probably opt for 'got' versus 'gotten' for this sentence, but, well, there are probably lots of other ways of pointing out no one should have been able to get on the train. Imo it might be an idea (as others have suggested) to simply reword the sentence to eliminate the problem.

[manna]

After writing so much in an American fandom, where I do try to get the vocab and grammar right even if I don't go as far as using US spelling, I must admit I've grown quite fond of 'gotten'.

[ankh-lj.livejournal.com]

Change it from 'but how could anyone have got onto the train' to 'but how could anyone have boarded the train' and go and eat pie.

[graegus-dot-com.livejournal.com]

*peforms run by licking*

[aizjanika.livejournal.com]

It's my understanding that "gotten" is correct American English (it's in my dictionary), but not in the UK. So if it's Jack or Daniel or any other American saying it, I think it's fine.

[betacandy.livejournal.com]

That's just too petty. "Got" as you used it IS acceptable in American usage as well as British. I don't see correcting it unless it's in dialog.

The editor may be ignorant of the British construction. Really. It's amazing how little you can know about the rest of the world if you spend your whole life in the US and don't take an interest in international TV and whatnot.

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

I hate gotten, and rarely, if ever use it myself. If I do it's only ever in dialogue with one of my American characters, but even then it has to 'sound' right for that sentence. There has been the odd occasion when I've automatically typed gotten in speech, because it just 'felt' right, but normally, I use got. And I'd certainly use it in narrative.

Also, having just literally finished a mainstream book written by a pretty well know, well respected British author that was set in America and written in ... British English throughout, it just confirms my feeling that the obsession with using the 'correct' language in fanfic is a strange one.

So stick with your guns, go with got. I read your sentence out loud with both 'got' and 'gotten' and definitely got sounds right.

Real writers write around the problem! :)

[wildcard-sej.livejournal.com]

I'm with you completely on the NFW-ness of using gotten, but can see where she's coming from with the American character/audience thing. How about getting rid of that troublesome got entirely and using boarded the train instead?