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Aug. 12th, 2005 05:27 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
graculusAnd meanwhile, I'm throwing myself to the lions... ;)
There's a discussion on one of the mailing lists I belong to about why zine sales seem to be dropping at conventions. There's speculation that perhaps 'young people today' just don't have the same bookworm tendencies and therefore don't buy books and so the not-buying-zines behaviour is just part of the same pattern. I'm not convinced.
I probably shouldn't have, but here's my post - I'd be interested in comments from the people reading this about the subject as a whole:
I think that the situation with zine sales is the result of a number of factors coming together.
First off, I wonder just how many of the people who attend conventions are the same people as previous years? How many new people do even the big cons like MW get, in terms of people who are 'con virgins'? Zines are luxury items, convention attendance even more so, particularly if you're talking about the US where paid leave seems to be at a premium. If conventions themselves aren't being 'sold' to fans then how are they going to survive as the people running them get older and/or less interested in giving up their time to organise them?
Part of the problem with zines is that (like it or not) some of the people producing zines have, to some extent, been their own worst enemy. I can't begin to detail the number of times I've seen the whole zine v. internet debate chewed over in a variety of locations and it never ends well. Like it or not, zines still for many fans have an elitist label stuck to them, based on a supposedly superior quality of fic which hasn't always been the case. Anyone who's been around in fandom for a while will be able to attest to the fact that we have some champion grudge carriers around here. ;)
I think the face of fandom as a whole is changing too. Very few fans seem to be single fandom any more - I remember when I first started attending cons, Sentinel was the fandom that seemed to be sweeping all before it, with more zines than every other fandom together (or so it seemed) and room for not just genre zines but also *sub*-genre zines (virgin!Blair zines being the first example that comes to mind). Where are all the Sentinel fans now? Single fandom fans seem to be much commoner in the older fandoms - I've come across quite a few in UNCLE and I believe it's also the case for fandoms like Pros and Starsky & Hutch.
I guess for me, the question is: what is it about zines that people can't get anywhere else? If it's about having fic in a handleable format, most people now have printers and access to alternative means of binding. For any but the old school fandoms, the chances of you getting fic there which doesn't eventually end up online is never going to be that good, so that's not as much of a pull. Particularly when we're talking about fandom as a whole being so much bigger *because* of the internet, mailing lists, livejournal communities. And certainly there hasn't always been a substantive difference in quality of what's being offered - the major difference at times has been more about presentation than content. And as the economic pressures bite, a fancy cover is going to be the least of people's worries.
Not sure what my conclusion is from all this - personally speaking, I like submitting stuff to zines but if I hadn't done that, I doubt I'd have bought all that many zines. Likewise, if I hadn't got into crossing the Atlantic for cons, I definitely wouldn't have bought many (any?) non-trib zines at $9 a pop shipping, besides which I like to see what I'm getting for my money. While I bless the invention of Paypal for getting money to people overseas, there's lots of competition for my attention and my wallet, so what makes zines so special?
*waits for the rocks* ;)
There's a discussion on one of the mailing lists I belong to about why zine sales seem to be dropping at conventions. There's speculation that perhaps 'young people today' just don't have the same bookworm tendencies and therefore don't buy books and so the not-buying-zines behaviour is just part of the same pattern. I'm not convinced.
I probably shouldn't have, but here's my post - I'd be interested in comments from the people reading this about the subject as a whole:
I think that the situation with zine sales is the result of a number of factors coming together.
First off, I wonder just how many of the people who attend conventions are the same people as previous years? How many new people do even the big cons like MW get, in terms of people who are 'con virgins'? Zines are luxury items, convention attendance even more so, particularly if you're talking about the US where paid leave seems to be at a premium. If conventions themselves aren't being 'sold' to fans then how are they going to survive as the people running them get older and/or less interested in giving up their time to organise them?
Part of the problem with zines is that (like it or not) some of the people producing zines have, to some extent, been their own worst enemy. I can't begin to detail the number of times I've seen the whole zine v. internet debate chewed over in a variety of locations and it never ends well. Like it or not, zines still for many fans have an elitist label stuck to them, based on a supposedly superior quality of fic which hasn't always been the case. Anyone who's been around in fandom for a while will be able to attest to the fact that we have some champion grudge carriers around here. ;)
I think the face of fandom as a whole is changing too. Very few fans seem to be single fandom any more - I remember when I first started attending cons, Sentinel was the fandom that seemed to be sweeping all before it, with more zines than every other fandom together (or so it seemed) and room for not just genre zines but also *sub*-genre zines (virgin!Blair zines being the first example that comes to mind). Where are all the Sentinel fans now? Single fandom fans seem to be much commoner in the older fandoms - I've come across quite a few in UNCLE and I believe it's also the case for fandoms like Pros and Starsky & Hutch.
I guess for me, the question is: what is it about zines that people can't get anywhere else? If it's about having fic in a handleable format, most people now have printers and access to alternative means of binding. For any but the old school fandoms, the chances of you getting fic there which doesn't eventually end up online is never going to be that good, so that's not as much of a pull. Particularly when we're talking about fandom as a whole being so much bigger *because* of the internet, mailing lists, livejournal communities. And certainly there hasn't always been a substantive difference in quality of what's being offered - the major difference at times has been more about presentation than content. And as the economic pressures bite, a fancy cover is going to be the least of people's worries.
Not sure what my conclusion is from all this - personally speaking, I like submitting stuff to zines but if I hadn't done that, I doubt I'd have bought all that many zines. Likewise, if I hadn't got into crossing the Atlantic for cons, I definitely wouldn't have bought many (any?) non-trib zines at $9 a pop shipping, besides which I like to see what I'm getting for my money. While I bless the invention of Paypal for getting money to people overseas, there's lots of competition for my attention and my wallet, so what makes zines so special?
*waits for the rocks* ;)
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no subject
Date: 2005-08-14 08:50 am (UTC)I'm getting my money's worth. Sadly I haven't always felt that when I've acquired zines, either with money or with my labour as a writer.
Oh, I agree that I've been disappointed with some of the zines I've bought and subbed to. But then I've also been disappointed with mainstream books, CDs, DVDs that I've bought. As I have to do virtually all my shopping on line, I have to take a chance on some things and often that pays off, but sometimes it doesn't - not even when it's been highly recommended.
Maybe it's because I'm so used to this kind of shopping and 'disappointment' that I'm more 'accepting' of the less than brilliant zines and prices. I hadn't really thought of that before, but it could explain it. Hmm, you've made me ponder now. :-)
no subject
Date: 2005-08-14 09:17 am (UTC)People go into every activity driven by a search for what they need. Perhaps the show itself draws groups of people together but the shared experience can be more important in meeting people's needs than the actual material being put out by the showmakers. So when the show fails to satisfy, or is cancelled, it's not a major problem for people who are more fans of the experience of fandom.
Some people will then find it much easier to leave the show canon behind than others because that's not as important to them as particular aspects of it (I'm thinking of the more extreme devotees of shipping and slashing here, the ones who don't seem to have much grounding in the show itself) or being part of the fandom group.
I'm afraid doing a degree in psychology has made me ponder people's motivations... ;)
Maybe it's because I'm so used to this kind of shopping and 'disappointment' that I'm more 'accepting' of the less than brilliant zines and prices.
There's also the fact that because zines are a product of the fandom community, there's a degree more tolerance for a less than perfect product than there is in the marketplace as a whole.
Complain about the overall quality of a zine and you may well get jumped on by the publishers' friends for not being 'fanlike' and appropriately grateful for the fact there's a zine at all. There's an unspoken pressure in the fannish community to be accepting and express gratitude for effort regardless of quality, even when there's also competing pressures regarding soliciting comment on your effort/quality. It's a minefield, really. ;)
no subject
Date: 2005-08-14 09:29 am (UTC)Ahh, me too. My first degree was in psychology and philosophy, and I spend a lot of time analysing motivation and stuff and 'reading between the lines', so to speak. It's good to know I'm not alone.
Everything you say about motivation is indeed true. And whatever works for the individual is great. I find it hard to leave canon behind as I had it drummed into me as being 'a heinous crime' when I first got into fandom. This is one reason why I personally can't ignore S3 & 4 of Due South, unlike some of my friends. Thus, when I do write in that fandom, most of my stuff is post Call of the Wild fix-its.
I'll try as hard a possible to work with canon and write/think my way around something that doesn't necessarily suit.
There's also the fact that because zines are a product of the fandom community, there's a degree more tolerance for a less than perfect product than there is in the marketplace as a whole.
Very true. Although I think this has become less so today. Certainly when you look at some of the older zines, the 'standard' of production, etc. etc. is less than that of today - understandably so. But people were also a lot more tolerant of different character interpretations, of different writing styles, many things that aren't 'allowed' today appeared in the older zines and were not only accepted by loved.
here's an unspoken pressure in the fannish community to be accepting and express gratitude for effort regardless of quality, even when there's also competing pressures regarding soliciting comment on your effort/quality.
This is very interesting. You see I have to respectfully disagree with this. As from what I've seen around fandom, my own and from studying a wide variety of them, people have no problems expressing their displeasure and slamming editors, writers, artists, etc. etc.
It's a minefield, really. ;)
Oh, yes. I do *so* agree with this!
no subject
Date: 2005-08-14 12:59 pm (UTC)As a RayK fan, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to differ. ;)
But people were also a lot more tolerant of different character interpretations, of different writing styles, many things that aren't 'allowed' today appeared in the older zines and were not only accepted by loved.
I can't speak for other long-lived fandoms but having read some earlier UNCLE zines, I can't say there was once a golden age of fandom where the sun shone all day and everyone skipped through the meadows in joyful harmony. What I'm seeing is some stuff where the characters don't bear a great deal of resemblance to the ones on the show, where the sex is badly-written, and where the dialogue sounds like it came from a Barbara Cartland novel.
I'm sure, just as today, there were people who loved fic that could drive them into a diabetic coma as well as people who liked their fic a little more hard-edged than that. And every shade in between. So, in many ways, I don't think things have changed all that much.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-14 04:23 pm (UTC)Ahh, I'd forgotten you were a Ray K fan. We shall indeed agree to differ, I'm used to that most of my longstanding fandom friends who are DS fans are RK fans - including the person who pimped me into it :-))
So, in many ways, I don't think things have changed all that much.
Indeed. I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head. At the end of the day there will always be some people who love something, and some who hate/dislike it. And for me that's one of the good things about fanfic - the variety. As much as I'd like everyone to write to 'my' view, I think it would also get boring quite soon.