(no subject)

[graculus]

And meanwhile, I'm throwing myself to the lions... ;)

There's a discussion on one of the mailing lists I belong to about why zine sales seem to be dropping at conventions. There's speculation that perhaps 'young people today' just don't have the same bookworm tendencies and therefore don't buy books and so the not-buying-zines behaviour is just part of the same pattern. I'm not convinced.

I probably shouldn't have, but here's my post - I'd be interested in comments from the people reading this about the subject as a whole:

I think that the situation with zine sales is the result of a number of factors coming together.

First off, I wonder just how many of the people who attend conventions are the same people as previous years? How many new people do even the big cons like MW get, in terms of people who are 'con virgins'? Zines are luxury items, convention attendance even more so, particularly if you're talking about the US where paid leave seems to be at a premium. If conventions themselves aren't being 'sold' to fans then how are they going to survive as the people running them get older and/or less interested in giving up their time to organise them?

Part of the problem with zines is that (like it or not) some of the people producing zines have, to some extent, been their own worst enemy. I can't begin to detail the number of times I've seen the whole zine v. internet debate chewed over in a variety of locations and it never ends well. Like it or not, zines still for many fans have an elitist label stuck to them, based on a supposedly superior quality of fic which hasn't always been the case. Anyone who's been around in fandom for a while will be able to attest to the fact that we have some champion grudge carriers around here. ;)

I think the face of fandom as a whole is changing too. Very few fans seem to be single fandom any more - I remember when I first started attending cons, Sentinel was the fandom that seemed to be sweeping all before it, with more zines than every other fandom together (or so it seemed) and room for not just genre zines but also *sub*-genre zines (virgin!Blair zines being the first example that comes to mind). Where are all the Sentinel fans now? Single fandom fans seem to be much commoner in the older fandoms - I've come across quite a few in UNCLE and I believe it's also the case for fandoms like Pros and Starsky & Hutch.

I guess for me, the question is: what is it about zines that people can't get anywhere else? If it's about having fic in a handleable format, most people now have printers and access to alternative means of binding. For any but the old school fandoms, the chances of you getting fic there which doesn't eventually end up online is never going to be that good, so that's not as much of a pull. Particularly when we're talking about fandom as a whole being so much bigger *because* of the internet, mailing lists, livejournal communities. And certainly there hasn't always been a substantive difference in quality of what's being offered - the major difference at times has been more about presentation than content. And as the economic pressures bite, a fancy cover is going to be the least of people's worries.

Not sure what my conclusion is from all this - personally speaking, I like submitting stuff to zines but if I hadn't done that, I doubt I'd have bought all that many zines. Likewise, if I hadn't got into crossing the Atlantic for cons, I definitely wouldn't have bought many (any?) non-trib zines at $9 a pop shipping, besides which I like to see what I'm getting for my money. While I bless the invention of Paypal for getting money to people overseas, there's lots of competition for my attention and my wallet, so what makes zines so special?

*waits for the rocks* ;)

Comments

[slashmommy.livejournal.com]

I wanted to bring a couple of things into the discussion. On the necessity of zines, the problem that I keep running into is that when things are only published online, you better grab them and save them in either electronic or printed format because you never know when they are going to a) move or b) disappear completely. I was thrilled to finally find a disk that had several stories that had gone poof into electronic dust. Zines stay around. Someone somewhere will still have it, it just may be difficult to find. Look at the archives for some of the "older" fandoms where people are putting the old zine stories online as they get permissions from the authors. The internet way, many of these stories would be lost.

I would agree that quality is declining on many of the zines. I do see a reason for that though. The competition being from the net means that it is fast and frequent. Zine publishers have to get there stuff out quickly in order to make enough sales to make it worthwhile and oftentimes I think that means that corners get cut.

This leads to another problem -- those who do put out a good product get ignored because they get tarnished with the same brush. A few years back I tried putting out a multimedia zine -- never again. We edited and edited and put out a huge zine. We only charged $20 though it was twice the size of most zines at that price. It was a run of 100 and I still have BOXES of the blasted thing. Those that did get sold had a good reputation and we got plenty of positive feedback, but when you put out $900 to put something out there and it doesn't sell, it makes it hard to see why you put in the effort.

On the theoretical side, I'd also point out that the nature of fans seems to be changing. You don't see as much loyalty to fandoms that you used to see. You might see people still reading or writing in an older fandom, but there is more of a moving with a new fandom and keeping only a passing fondness for the old one. In "the old days" it didn't matter if you're show was on the air or not, you still continued on -- even though you might only have bad copies if you were lucky of the actual show. Now you can get many shows on DVD and you still don't have that kind of ... fan loyalty/following.

Anywho, just a few things that popped into my head when I read your post...

Ker

[graculus.livejournal.com]

On the necessity of zines, the problem that I keep running into is that when things are only published online, you better grab them and save them in either electronic or printed format because you never know when they are going to a) move or b) disappear completely.

That's an interesting point. I think that those of us who've only ever known fandom and the internet quite easily forget how transient some of it is. I know on the Stargate forum I help run, we had a discussion about what were the first stories in that fandom and most of them were still around, but not all. But then I also remember the problems that arose when an archive like Master Apprentice started putting stuff on disc and there were issues with that, so nothing's ever straight forward, is it? ;)

I would agree that quality is declining on many of the zines. I do see a reason for that though. The competition being from the net means that it is fast and frequent. Zine publishers have to get there stuff out quickly in order to make enough sales to make it worthwhile and oftentimes I think that means that corners get cut.

I think this is particularly an issue if publishers are trying to keep up with whatever is the New Shiny of the moment. It doesn't seem to be as much of an issue in some of the older fandoms, from where I'm sitting.

On the theoretical side, I'd also point out that the nature of fans seems to be changing.

Fans are changing, fandom is changing. Fandoms go through their lifecycle much quicker now, I think, because of the nature of the internet. Also, many fandoms are much less US-dominated, which can itself lead to issues that haven't been so common before.

You don't see as much loyalty to fandoms that you used to see. You might see people still reading or writing in an older fandom, but there is more of a moving with a new fandom and keeping only a passing fondness for the old one.

There certainly do seem to be fans who are more than prone to attacks of the new shiny. Somehow I doubt that many of the new shiny fandoms will last much past whenever their respective shows get cancelled, as everything does eventually, with the fans wandering off to something else. I've always been fascinated by the comparison between this and the old school fandoms - as an UNCLE fan, I'm so pleased to see a good mix of people who've been in the fandom for decades alongside the newbies.

Thanks for your input! :)

[blktauna.livejournal.com]

Being well versed in the vagaries of bits, I have many cd backups of anything I find on the net that I like... including entire websites...

But that might just be my anal virgo popping out...

[slashmommy.livejournal.com]

I think part of what I see as a rise in the "new shiny" is tied to the focus on internet. It also seems to be tied to the idea of immediate gratification. "Oh look, pretty men, I wonder if there's fic. Oh gee, there is." With a zine, there was a longer turn around and money involved, not to mention having to find room for it in your house. : ) You had to really actually be interested in the fandom to get the zine. It couldn't just be a passing interest -- I think that's why you still see the older fandoms represented well in zine fandom. There's been more of an investment.

What really frustrates me is that one would think with the mass of fandoms out there and the number of fen who are multi-fandom based that there would be a rise in Multimedia zines and web archives, but you really don't see that. It isn't that these fen are truly multimedia/multifandom fen, but that they're serial fen -- one new fandom after another. Call me old fashioned, but once I'm in a fandom, I'm in it. I have more fandoms than you can shake a stick at -- I'm easy to pimp -- but while I may keep up with the new shiny, I still keep a hand in my prior fandoms. Most of my zine collection is multimedia zines because I have so many fandoms period. I have a few that are fandom specific, but not many.

Having worked on multiple cons, I have a tendency to study the changes in fandom. When you're trying to make that many people happy with the programming you have to : ) I think part of what people see as a splintering of fandom is actually that the digital age has put us more in communication with each other and so you are able to see more of the different groupings.

You do realize that I may have to do several essays for my lj thanks to the things you've got me thinking about, don't you? : )

[blktauna.livejournal.com]

There's more people in fandom than there used to be. It used to be people from a show would be all about the show. Now its the people jumping from show to show because they're fans of fandom rather than of a show. It's a social group rather than a group of show geeks communing.

Now it's just easier to see the larger masses migrating.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

There's more people in fandom than there used to be. It used to be people from a show would be all about the show. Now its the people jumping from show to show because they're fans of fandom rather than of a show. It's a social group rather than a group of show geeks communing.

Now it's just easier to see the larger masses migrating.

I like the idea of people being 'fans of fandom' rather than fans of the show and think that describes some of the behaviour quite well.

I think the lifecycle of a fandom happens faster now, as well. You certainly see the rise of the wannabe BNFs in fandoms happening much quicker (after all, how did you get to be a BNF in zine fandoms except by probably years of producing stuff? Now a couple of stories over a few weeks and you can be there, if your stories hit the right nerve and that's your thing...).

[blktauna.livejournal.com]

And as we know, becoming a BNF is very important to many people.

As for lifecycle... yeah. Didn't everyone run through Sentinal then to DS, then into UNCLE and now right up to Atlantis?

It boggles me. I have to say that lots of the fic everyone raves over could be ATG for me. There's not any real connection to the show or the characters. It seems that the readers are only concerned with the story being told and not the people it's being told about. This brings back horrid flashbacks to the aforementioned gen zines from back in the day...

[graculus.livejournal.com]

Didn't everyone run through Sentinal then to DS, then into UNCLE and now right up to Atlantis?

Some of them went Sentinel-Due South-Smallville-Atlantis, others went Sentinel-Due South-UNCLE-Atlantis, some went Sentinel-Smallville-Atlantis, and so on and so forth... ;)

I have to say that lots of the fic everyone raves over could be ATG for me. There's not any real connection to the show or the characters. It seems that the readers are only concerned with the story being told and not the people it's being told about. This brings back horrid flashbacks to the aforementioned gen zines from back in the day...

For me, I have to actually like at least one of the pairing in question and at least be able to tolerate the other. I'm just not getting that vibe from many of the New Shiny shows and 'pretty' (which is incredibly subjective anyway) is so subjective as to be hopeless. But then I'm also picky and want good plot, hot sex and characters acting in a logical way, so I'm already losing that battle... ;)

[blktauna.livejournal.com]

For me, I have to actually like at least one of the pairing in question and at least be able to tolerate the other.

And on top of it, I have to "see" the slash between them. To be honest, I don't see the popular pairing in the new shiny and I don't care for the show. Sort of takes the fun out of it for me.

And snotty elitist I am, I do not like butterflies. My gut reaction is always "Why are you invading my fandom and how soon are you leaving please." Fortunately they don't stay long. And you always know who they are.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

And snotty elitist I am, I do not like butterflies. My gut reaction is always "Why are you invading my fandom and how soon are you leaving please." Fortunately they don't stay long. And you always know who they are.

Particularly those who take the trouble to announce how crap everyone else is and how they're coming to show you all how to write good fic. In that modest way they usually seem to have. The words 'bitch, please' usually leap to mind at that point. ;)

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I think part of what I see as a rise in the "new shiny" is tied to the focus on internet. It also seems to be tied to the idea of immediate gratification. "Oh look, pretty men, I wonder if there's fic. Oh gee, there is."

It also works the other way around - there's a space for new/obscure fandoms that wasn't there before. See slashiness in something nobody else does? Want to write about it! No problem! Sure, your audience might be you, two other people and a dog but it doesn't matter, there's the chance for you to spread the love anyway. It doesn't need to be commercially viable.

You had to really actually be interested in the fandom to get the zine. It couldn't just be a passing interest -- I think that's why you still see the older fandoms represented well in zine fandom. There's been more of an investment.

You also needed to know how to get hold of information in the first place. If you didn't know the people who knew *and* the secret handshake, the world of fandom was closed to you. Now, whether we like it or not, everything is more or less accessible. Like you say, that rewards the ephemeral but it's also a leveller, bringing in overseas fans (from which viewpoint I speak, for one) alongside those in the US.

What really frustrates me is that one would think with the mass of fandoms out there and the number of fen who are multi-fandom based that there would be a rise in Multimedia zines and web archives, but you really don't see that.

Personally, I've never quite got my head around multimedia zines. Bizarre, really, since I'll read in a lot of fandoms (as my recs pages can testify) - I guess the ones I've come across in the past have been dominated by certain fandoms I really dislike or could care less about. I don't have much interest in getting a zine where I might only want to read 1/3 of the stories.

As for multimedia archives, I think the problem with that is now some fandoms are just too big. A large active fandom just creates too much material for someone to give house room to in an archive, except that really there aren't that many fandom-wide archives which aren't at least genre-specific (in my experience). The exceptions to this seem to be for the smaller fandoms and you have to wonder how workable that's going to be over time.

It isn't that these fen are truly multimedia/multifandom fen, but that they're serial fen -- one new fandom after another.

There does seem to be more of this, with people moving on from one fandom to the next and basically shedding the previous coat at the door. It's annoying as a reader when the writers you like move on to something else, I know that.

Some fans seem to trail around in the wake of certain writers (regardless of how well those writers grasp who the characters in their newest fandom are), which then begs the question of just what those fans are a fan of. Likewise, some writers come into new fandoms with attitude (my personal favourite: "the slash in this fandom sucks, we're going to come and show you all how to do it").

I can't say I have quite the same love for Stargate SG-1 I used to have, but that's because the ongoing fandom issues have bashed some of it out of me. But I have a lot invested in that fandom - over 6 years of my life, a lot of good friends, a couple of mB of fic. So I can't imagine just waking up one morning and walking away from it all to something new.

I think part of what people see as a splintering of fandom is actually that the digital age has put us more in communication with each other and so you are able to see more of the different groupings.

The other side of that is, people in fandom don't have to get along if there are differences of opinion because there are more options now. Don't like the OTP some people are pushing in your fandom? Set up a mailing list/livejournal community for your pairing of choice. What were your options before?

You do realize that I may have to do several essays for my lj thanks to the things you've got me thinking about, don't you? : )

Hey, if I'm chewing this stuff over, everyone else ought to be too! :P

[blktauna.livejournal.com]

You also needed to know how to get hold of information in the first place. If you didn't know the people who knew *and* the secret handshake, the world of fandom was closed to you.

I was not among the "in-crowd" until the net opened up. So I'd have probably never met anyone but katyabayturinsy without it.

I guess the ones I've come across in the past have been dominated by certain fandoms I really dislike or could care less about. I don't have much interest in getting a zine where I might only want to read 1/3 of the stories.

My problem exactly. I don't even like 1/3 of the fandoms generally.
heh maybe I should do Tauna's Multimedia choice
Sweeney, Pros, Uncle, S&H, Morse, Sandbaggers, Curry&Pepper, Thief Takers

heee.

Don't like the OTP some people are pushing in your fandom? Set up a mailing list/livejournal community for your pairing of choice.

Bingo. I see no reason to suffer with a pairing you don't like simply because the majority of a fandom does like it. Three cheers for the net.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I see no reason to suffer with a pairing you don't like simply because the majority of a fandom does like it. Three cheers for the net.

My thoughts exactly. You know, on giving it some consideration I think I'm of the same opinion as you - while I like good zines, if there was no such thing I wouldn't miss them.

I guess that makes me a double heretic! :P

[seanchaidh.livejournal.com]

A few years back I tried putting out a multimedia zine -- never again.

I know for me personally, multimedia zines aren't as interesting because there's only one or two stories of the fandom I want, and I won't usually be interested in the others. So I won't buy/contribute to them.

I wonder if that's true for everyone?