Just wondering...

[graculus]

As people who read my journal regularly will probably know, my recs pages have been taken over by Harry Potter recs, mostly because that's the fandom I'm reading the most in recently - while there's some hideously bad fic out there, the pairings I like don't seem to be too bad and there are some writers out there who turn out story after story I really like. But this post isn't about that... ;)

Recently, there's been the latest couple of stories in a series of Harry Potter fics posted where the first story begins with one of the protagonists being at the World Trade Centre on 9/11. They're well-written fic, on the whole, so the issue is not that, it's just that when I was re-reading the original fic when the second was recently completed, I'd forgotten quite how it made me feel the first time around and why I hadn't recced it back then.

For me, even as an observer, not directly affected by the effects of 9/11 any more than the average person in the street, it felt wrong somehow. Not because it took the whole subject lightly or casually (which it didn't) or that it used it as a plot device to get the protagonists together (which it didn't, or at least not directly) but it just felt like an event that was too important to use in that way, as if involving it in fic somehow trivialised it. I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well...

Would I feel the same way about fic involving the many godawful things I've seen in my lifetime alone (the Boxing Day tsunami, the IRA bomb campaigns, Lockerbie, Hungerford, Hillsborough, the recent London Underground bombs, to name just a few)? I don't know. Are there things we shouldn't use this way? And if so, why not? Is where we draw the line different for fic?

Comments

[emony.livejournal.com]

It's very interesting. I read an HP fic recently which was about the London bombings. I really wasn't sure, before I read it, if it was going to upset me or just seem wrong. I'm still not entirely sure whether it was right, and I've no idea how you would draw a line between acceptable and unacceptable integration of real events of this nature in fic. I suppose I'd see it as a way for the author, and also maybe the reader, to work through some feelings about the events at a slightly removed distance. I found the footage of the London bombings extremely harrowing and very difficult to see, but it was the fic that really made me cry over the human loss that had occurred in real life.

I also saw that programme on BBC2, The Rotters Club (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0426367/), when it was on a year or so ago, one part of which involved the boyfriend of the main character's sister being killed in the Birmingham pub bombings. It's the same sort of thing really, I think, providing an access point to a subject that might otherwise be difficult for the reader or viewer to fully process. I know that with that programme, and with the fic too, part of my reaction was seeing the pain that those characters were going through, but part of it was also recognising the real pain that people went through when their lives were destroyed in those, and other, events. The Birmingham bombings, for example - my parents were living in Birmingham at the time. They could've both been killed. It was something fairly abstract until I saw that dramatised version of the events. Then it became something real.

I don't think I'm explaining very well. But I think absorbing real events into fictional situations can be a way for viewers or readers to access the events on a different level. As long as they can maintain the distance to realise that the events within the fic are not themselves real, and as long as the subject is very sensitively handled, I think it can be okay.

[mer1973.livejournal.com]

I can see that. It is uncomfortable to read about 9/11 in a fic, and unless I really trusted the author, I'd probably pass a story like that by. That said, people have been issues fiction to work out their issues for ages. Some of it is legitmate self-therapy, some of it wanking, and some of it the mental equivalant of cutting. I really don't know where the line is.

[xochiquetzl]

I think time is part of it. For example, I'm not ready to read Hurricane Katrina fic. Some of that may be time, some of that may be geography. I mean, I don't think people would be upset about a story which referenced the Titanic, or Pompeii.

I don't think there's an exact formula, though. Number of people dead times amount of time past in years equals how appropriate it is to use a real-life event...

Question: Is the line for original fiction different than for fanfic?

[musigneus.livejournal.com]

That's a very interesting question. Assuming that we're talking about relatively serious and thoughtful stories, I think my answer for fanfic is the same as it would be for professional fiction - which is that I don't think there are events that we automatically should not use. Novelists and screen writers have been basing stories on horrific events for years; Patriot Games and In the Name of the Father, for example, are the first ones that come to mind that use the IRA. And as the commenter above said, I think reading and writing about such events can be useful for some people, as a way to come to terms with things on a personal level. I don't think such stories are for everyone, however, because we all react differently depending on our proximity to the events (whether through space or time or personal involvement) and our personalities.

I should perhaps say that the story that sparked your question was written as a gift for me in a fic exchange, and I thought it was well done and I enjoyed it. But had I been closer to the events of 9/11 - had my sister-in-law decided to finish her paperwork for her internship at the WTC that morning instead of sleeping in - then I don't think I could have read it.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I'm still not entirely sure whether it was right, and I've no idea how you would draw a line between acceptable and unacceptable integration of real events of this nature in fic.

I think it's easier to say what's completely unacceptable than what's borderline, which to me would be things like the use of disaster as a flimsy plot device to get character A and character B shagging. It would probably depend on the talent of the author in question as to how contrived a disaster backdrop appears, I guess...

But I think absorbing real events into fictional situations can be a way for viewers or readers to access the events on a different level.

There's certainly been a long tradition within fic of using stories as therapy of a sort, though again this can be kind of awkward and unsettling for the audience. It's the kind of thing that (for me) begs the question 'okay, so it was good for *you* but does that necessarily mean you need to share it with everyone else?'.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

It is uncomfortable to read about 9/11 in a fic, and unless I really trusted the author, I'd probably pass a story like that by.

I went back to re-read the first story when the second one was finished mostly because I couldn't remember too much about the first story - a second time around I found it even more unsettling than I remembered my first encounter with it being.

Perhaps in this case it's because it's quite well-written that my feeling was not of exploitation (which would have been the case if it was cheapened by being used as a plot device) but more a feeling that those characters just shouldn't be there.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I think time is part of it. For example, I'm not ready to read Hurricane Katrina fic. Some of that may be time, some of that may be geography. I mean, I don't think people would be upset about a story which referenced the Titanic, or Pompeii.

You know, I was wondering about this as well. I was reminded of my step-dad, who was a career soldier and saw service in WW2, Kenya and Korea, among other places. There were movies about war he'd happily watch - he loved Platoon, iirc. In fact, he was far happier with more graphic movies, which of course became more of the norm in recent years, than he was with the air-brushed Hollywood mythos.

Somehow I think the formula may be more complex than just time and extent, as I think the quality of the presentation and also the reality of it factor into the equation. Like I said in one of my previous posts, I sort of felt that those characters just shouldn't be there.

Question: Is the line for original fiction different than for fanfic?

Good question. Is the *purpose* of original fiction different than that of fanfic?

[graculus.livejournal.com]

Assuming that we're talking about relatively serious and thoughtful stories, I think my answer for fanfic is the same as it would be for professional fiction - which is that I don't think there are events that we automatically should not use.

I think my automatic response to any fic which cheapened something that affected people would be to say it's not on, whether that is profic or fanfic. No difference there - trivialisation is trivialisation, regardless of whether the author is someone on a mailing list or John Grisham.

I should perhaps say that the story that sparked your question was written as a gift for me in a fic exchange, and I thought it was well done and I enjoyed it. But had I been closer to the events of 9/11 - had my sister-in-law decided to finish her paperwork for her internship at the WTC that morning instead of sleeping in - then I don't think I could have read it.

I don't dispute the quality of the writing and perhaps it's that very thing that has caused me a problem, since badly-written fics are much easier to dismiss. As for the personal effect, I don't know - none of us can know that.

[xochiquetzl]

Good question. Is the *purpose* of original fiction different than that of fanfic?

IMHO, no. I think the purpose of various genres differs--erotica is meant to arouse, horror to scare, etc.--but fanfic's purpose is pretty much wide open.

[watersusurrus.livejournal.com]

Very interesting. Is there a time delay with this, do you think? What about Nazi-era fic? Just curious!


(I don't know how I'd feel about London bombing and 9/11 fics, as I haven't read any yet)

[bitmaxmouse.livejournal.com]

I think I might cringe if real life disasters were applied to any fic, book, or TV; so I usually avoid them like the plague. Except in the case of Law and Order. That was the only show I've ever seen that has tastefully taken various sides of a crime case that was intimately involved with 9/11 or train bombings and such.

[baseballchica03.livejournal.com]

Honestly, it would bug me more if Harry & Co. weren't the appropriate age for the storyline. It happened... How is it any different from using World War II as a plot device? It is a major historical event, despite its terrible nature.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Here via the Snitch.

When it comes to tragedy, everyone deals with grief in their own way. Some people deal with it through writing fic, because fiction becomes a way to sort out and experience your feelings but in a slightly removed way. My aunt was killed in a car accident shortly after I started writing an HP fic set during the summer after OotP, and the grief that Harry and Remus felt over Sirius's death became a way for me to express my grief over my aunt.

But precisely because fic is used as an emotional outlet for some, is why other people are not comfortable reading it. It can bring all those emotions to the surface again in a way that we're not prepared to deal with. As another example, I thought about writing a fictionalized account of the road trip that my mother and aunt had been on when my aunt was killed, but I hesitated to do it because I thought my mother would have a really hard time reading such a fic. Because it would have been about *my* grief and not about hers. You know what I mean? Our own pain can be hard enough to deal with, let alone someone else's.

So it's perfectly natural for you to feel a bit put off by that fic; but at the same time it's natural for that author to deal with that tragedy through fic.

Here via DS

[auctasinistra.livejournal.com]

to say ... the weird thing is, I agree with you that it feels wrong, and, like you, I can't put my finger on why. My inclination is to go "Oh god" and hit the back button whenever a "recent" catastrophe is referenced in fanfic, so it's not that I know they're trivializing it -- I can't know, as I generally don't read it. I suppose I'm assuming by definition that fanfic will (or is likely to?) treat the subject in a way that I, at least, will find exploitive, however the author meant it. I can't really see Snarry plus 9-11 as being anything other than wrong. Possibly because it's all too much of a stretch? That may be the only reason; why do the huge reaching necessary to place fanfictional characters in a place there's no good reason for them to be in the first place? It feels like artificial gravitas or artificial angst, I guess. The London bombings would be more realistic ... except HP characters don't travel on the Tube, do they? But it could be pulled off.
Again, I'm not saying the authors intend cheap drama by inappropriately pulling in a recent catastrophe, only that I see it and some part of me reacts that way, so I tend not to read it.

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

I think for me the problem is that the HP universe doesn't fit our universe well enough for me to see 9/11 fitting (Dumbledore and WWII possibly depending on the author).

I've seen it done well for the Buffyverse because that fits our reality better, but it does depend on the characters and the writer(s) -- most of those I've read have been part of big series, where the disaster in question is referenced when the timeline intersects with it.

Same goes for original fiction -- at some point I'm sure Richard will be on a dig, or researching an indigenous population when a natural disaster occurs. I'll research that the same way I'd research anything else that impacts on my characters.

Gina

Re: Here via DS

[graculus.livejournal.com]

Having given it some thought, I'm starting to wonder if it's the incongruity that doesn't work for me.

After all, the HP universe is all about the power of magic and yet here are our protagonists, powerful wizards, using their magic in this environment mostly for the trivial when lives are being lost.

It's quite possible I wouldn't feel the same way about say a Without a Trace fic where one of the characters was similarly involved in that catastrophe because it's not such a stretch.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering whether it's not so much time as fandom fit - HP is all about magic, the use and misuse of it, yet in this story though magic ultimately saves the life of one of the characters, all the other uses of it in that environment are seemingly quite trivial. Maybe it's just that for me the fandom doesn't fit too well into that scenario...

As for different time periods, it's always dependent on how well written the fic in question is. You could have extremely poignant and affecting WW2 fic and stuff that makes you want to beat the author to death with a copy of Anne Frank's diary...

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure it was the disaster itself or just how it didn't seem to fit what was going on - the skill of the author prevented it from being trivialised but it still just didn't seem right somehow.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

Having given it more thought (I have a long drive to work, so I have time to muse on things), I'm coming to the conclusion that it's not the event itself but the dissonance between a fandom where magic is so central and yet so utterly ineffective for the most part in this particular scenario. It's like I discovered the man behind the curtain...

[graculus.livejournal.com]

But precisely because fic is used as an emotional outlet for some, is why other people are not comfortable reading it. It can bring all those emotions to the surface again in a way that we're not prepared to deal with.

I wouldn't consider 'uncomfortable' to be a strong enough emotion to be somehow triggered by fic. I've read fic where I have been emotionally moved because of the intensity of it - here it just felt somehow out of joint.

I've said in a couple of other comments on this post now that I'm wondering if it's due to me seeing a dissonance between the HP universe and that event, that somehow magic is ineffective on the whole in that scenario and that doesn't sit well with me...

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I think for me the problem is that the HP universe doesn't fit our universe well enough for me to see 9/11 fitting (Dumbledore and WWII possibly depending on the author).

I think I came to the same conclusion independently of you, as I think magic in this particular series of stories is mostly quite ineffectual and that doesn't sit well with how I see the HP universe.

[baseballchica03.livejournal.com]

I once came across a frighteningly, hauntingly brilliant fic where everyone (Voldemort and company as well) die because the muggles have engaged in nuclear war. All of the magic at Howarts was completely ineffective in dealing with radiation sickness. It was so painful to read, but definitely beautifully written.

Re: Here via DS

[auctasinistra.livejournal.com]

I do think, for me, it's in my head -- that the authors don't at all mean to trivialize the event (what exactly they do mean, I'm not sure; I'd never set a fic within a recent RL disaster) -- but that when I see a fanfic (surely the most fantastic of fantasies?) set within a terrible RL situation, that RL situation feels trivialized in my head.

On a lighter note: What the fuck are they doing in New York anyways? ;) AU-ish fics often risk throwing me out. I'm not a crossover/AU fan. I like my fic in its element. I don't want to read about Harry the California school boy or spaceman, so things tending that way tend to lose me. As ever, my opinion only and others' mileage is free to vary without let or hindrance, 'til death do us part, amen. :)

[watersusurrus.livejournal.com]

I meant more, do you think you/fandom will be more comfortable with fics set during the London bombing in, say, twenty years? (Assuming the HP fandom is still around then)

And, yes, I quite agree with you!

[edido.livejournal.com]

here via the Daily Snitch...

You know this is a really interesting question. I live in lower Manhattan and for quite a while, even after the smoke went away and the missing posters came down, I thought that a day wouldn't ever go by without thinking about it, or noticing the absence of the Towers as they were quite visible as I made my way home each night, and I always used to use them to figure out which direction I was facing when leaving the subway on the West Side. But now I hardly ever look for them anymore. We are forgetting. It's rarely even mentioned. So I think the time is probably right for art and fiction to explore it a bit.

That being said, I usually read HP fanfic for the fantasy and the magic. I haven't read any fic like that (nor have I read any where Draco and Ginny go back in time to sail the Titanic, LOL). Doesn't mean it couldn't be done though.

Re: Here via DS

[graculus.livejournal.com]

On a lighter note: What the fuck are they doing in New York anyways? ;) AU-ish fics often risk throwing me out. I'm not a crossover/AU fan. I like my fic in its element. I don't want to read about Harry the California school boy or spaceman, so things tending that way tend to lose me.

I suppose there's a little more room for manoeuvre in this case since one of our protagonists was at a conference in New York when all this was going on...

My overwhelming feeling with some AUs (and this isn't really an AU story, it's just stretched across the Atlantic) is 'why would you want to do that?' I'm one for logical progressions, I guess, and the more steps you take away from the original universe the less it becomes about those characters in reality. However, some AUs work really well, if the characters are still recognisable and act in a way that's consistent with the original, though again people's mileage may vary.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

But now I hardly ever look for them anymore. We are forgetting.

How do you feel when, for example, movies use stock footage of New York that includes the WTC towers? I know I've been watching my Sports Night dvds recently and it was quite a jolt to see the amount of scene dividers that have shots of the city skyline with the towers right there.

That being said, I usually read HP fanfic for the fantasy and the magic. I haven't read any fic like that (nor have I read any where Draco and Ginny go back in time to sail the Titanic, LOL). Doesn't mean it couldn't be done though.

On thinking about this whole thing more, I think it's how the two scenarios sit together that has thrown me - HP is set in a universe where magic is immensely powerful and affects everything, but here we are in a setting where wizards and witches die because they're unable to save themselves. What use is their magic there, other than for trivial things that make life a little easier but ultimately are quite futile?

The whole 'he's dead and I never got the chance to shag him because I realised I loved him too late!' cliche is a long-standing one in romantic fic of every variety and fortunately it doesn't quite come across as being all about that, but it's a fine line.

Re: Here via DS

[auctasinistra.livejournal.com]

I'm one for logical progressions, I guess, and the more steps you take away from the original universe the less it becomes about those characters in reality.

Exactly. It's harder for the writer to pull it off well, for one thing, and it takes me out of the world I've chosen to read about -- which is fine and all, but the further it gets from that world, the less interested I am. That is of course not a criticism of AUs or even the insertion of RL stuff -- just, as you say, a personal preference.

[edido.livejournal.com]

Well, when I see a picture, or there's an article about the development plans, it does exactly that, it gives me a little jolt (and makes me a little sad as well). But that's what I mean, it's not part of my everyday consciousness anymore, not the way it used to be.

Romances are often set in sweeping historical settings and all but that event was so very horrific its hard for me to view it in the same way I do events I am disatnced from. But really, my problem with it in HP is that I read fic because I like the Wizarding World as a setting, and it has its own politics that I find quite interesting. I get impatient with fics set too much in the Muggle world generally. And I think the events in canon and what we could imagine for the future are a sweeping enough backdrop for romance as it is.

But a good writer can do anything plausibly. And I wouldn't be offended by its appearance in fic, in any case, even if it wasn't something I wanted to read.

[seanchaidh.livejournal.com]

Drawing a bit of a parallel, I felt sort of the same way when I saw the premiere of CSI:NY where Gary Sinise's character had lost his wife in the WTC attacks. That just... I dunno, I guess my suspension of belief kind of couldn't handle it.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I don't think I made it through the pilot episode and I'm sure that was part of the reason...

[seanchaidh.livejournal.com]

Tee hee!

I didn't watch beyond the pilot because I didn't feel much connection to the characters. I wasn't immediately intruiged with them the way I was with the original CSI. Hmmm. Kinda like Stargate. *cough*

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I've tried all sorts of shows and if I can't make it through the pilot then I never go back... I have to watch stuff from episode 1 onwards, though that doesn't mean I'll stick with it if I get bored later on.

Neither of the CSI spin-offs have grabbed me - they usually seem to have someone I find immediately annoying or just characters who are blandness personified. I find Sara and Catherine a bit annoying but the guys make up for them, I guess. ;)